The pictures you don't see

[Fiend_85]

A mate just emailed them to me, and I felt compelled to pass them on.

[Teh_Gerbil]

Aye. Moving. The Human side of the soldiers... most of the guys are alright lads.

A few always let the side down though.

[Kentish]

:thumb: A timely reminder.

[Fiend_85]

Aye. Moving. The Human side of the soldiers... most of the guys are alright lads.

A few always let the side down though.
But not because they are soldiers, but because people are like that.

[Teh_Gerbil]

But not because they are soldiers, but because people are like that.

Well obviously not because they are soldiers. A small group lets the football fans down... a small group lets the police down.

A minority of people can be right cocks when they try.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

OMG now I feel completely differently about war and stuff. i didnt realise soldiers liked cats too!

[Fiend_85]

Well, I'm glad you've changed your mind. But that wasn't really the point. I'm not really sure I had one, just that, like the police here, and nurses and doctors they get a lot of abuse for doing a hard job. Except, unlike the police and nurses and doctors you don't see the human side, it's all marching in neat rows and looking shiny and well groomed or looking dangerous or whatever. So while some of them are a little bit cheesy, it doesn't alter that they're just blokes doing a job.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

they are, but they still go round killing people for money.

[Kentish]

they are, but they still go round killing people for money.
Harsh.

You obviously don't know anyone in the army.

[Blagsta]

Hey, soldiers are human too!

[wheresmyplacebo]

Harsh.

You obviously don't know anyone in the army.

thats the job description


or do people join the army to travel as they advertise, i think not


i was considering joining the armed forces fully aware i'm basically being paid to kill people, and i decidfed not to after a long thought

[Balddog]

That cat stroking dude is an israeli...hes just lulling it into a false sense of security so he can put it in his pot along with arab babies.

[Fiend_85]

they are, but they still go round killing people for money.
I was going to join the army, that was my whole plan, my primary consideration was not "Yey, now I get to shoot guns at people and be paid for it!"

[seeker]

they are, but they still go round killing people for money.

Behave yourself , Suzy, telling the truth can get you in trouble ;)

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Harsh.

You obviously don't know anyone in the army.
Yeah ive known plenty of people in the army, I live in a major garrison town.
Its true. Soldiers are trained to fight and kill people and they get a fairly good wage for it.
Im surprised you didnt know that tbh.

[Babyshambler]

I thought soldiers were trained to protect our country. Obviously that is going to involve training to kill people in the event of war. And the wage isn't that amazing, not for your average Infantry soldier anyway - I think I earn more in my office call centre job.

[Disillusioned]

they are, but they still go round killing people for money.

I guess you're unfamiliar with peacekeeping and humanitarian operations.. :rolleyes: Those in our armed forces do not 'go around killing people for money' - they're not mercenaries or hitmen.

[Fiend_85]

It's not really the point about what the army in itself does, it's the reasons why people join. It's grossly unfair to ignore the other, and often for a recruit, more important reasons for joining.

[seeker]

I thought soldiers were trained to protect our country.

I could only guess where you got that "thought" from.


I guess you're unfamiliar with peacekeeping and humanitarian operations.. :rolleyes: Those in our armed forces do not 'go around killing people for money' - they're not mercenaries or hitmen.

Let me,for one, know what you are talking about.

What would you say is " a hitman" ?

What would you say is " a mercenary" ?

[Aladdin]

I was going to join the army, that was my whole plan, my primary consideration was not "Yey, now I get to shoot guns at people and be paid for it!" Scarily enough Fiend, that is a very real situation in some nations. Probably not here though.

[Vonnie]

I thought soldiers were trained to protect our country. Obviously that is going to involve training to kill people in the event of war. And the wage isn't that amazing, not for your average Infantry soldier anyway - I think I earn more in my office call centre job.
Fair point, but exactly how are soldiers protecting "our" country in Iraq? I'm sure the citizens of Haditha are thrilled to have such fine, upstanding moralistic men looking after their interests.

Those photos are blatantly posed and Western-media friendly. Nice thought in posting them, but the reality is far different.

[Fiend_85]

Scarily enough Fiend, that is a very real situation in some nations. Probably not here though.
Some, maybe, but here it what I was going for.

[Blagsta]

I guess you're unfamiliar with peacekeeping and humanitarian operations.. :rolleyes: Those in our armed forces do not 'go around killing people for money' - they're not mercenaries or hitmen.

So soldiers aren't there to do the bidding of the government? You might want to rethink that one.

[Blagsta]

It's not really the point about what the army in itself does, it's the reasons why people join. It's grossly unfair to ignore the other, and often for a recruit, more important reasons for joining.

True. A lot lads join to get a job and a trade cos there's not a lot of other job opportunities.

[Flashman's Ghost]

Yeah ive known plenty of people in the army, I live in a major garrison town.
Its true. Soldiers are trained to fight and kill people and they get a fairly good wage for it.
Im surprised you didnt know that tbh.

Its a pretty shite wage when you think to earn it you may spend six months of the year away from home, working sixteen hour days with people taking pot shots at you.

[Fiend_85]

True. A lot lads join to get a job and a trade cos there's not a lot of other job opportunities.

You know, I wasn't really expecting that kind of response from you.

Most of the boys that join up aren't thinking that sooner or later you'll have to shoot someone, or they'll shoot you, or your mate. Whether the boys are operational somewhere they shouldn't be or not, the people that they kill, tend to be the ones that'd sooner kill them, accidents happen, but the british army have a really good record when it comes to civilian casualties.

They join the army for similar reasons to my own. For me, it was the fast fast track to Chartered Engineers status, it was uni for free. For them, it's getting away from their home town, it's the mates, it's the jobs you can get after, it's the adventure. It's not killing people for money.

[Flashman's Ghost]

True. A lot lads join to get a job and a trade cos there's not a lot of other job opportunities.

people join for lots of reasons. Thats certainly one of them. Boredom with working a '9-5' civilian job is another, old fashioned patriotism, a wish to travel and see the world, sporting opportunities, family links, perhaps even a bit of romanticism.

[Blagsta]

You know, I wasn't really expecting that kind of response from you.

Just goes to show how little you pay attention. I've posted similar before.

Most of the boys that join up aren't thinking that sooner or later you'll have to shoot someone, or they'll shoot you, or your mate. Whether the boys are operational somewhere they shouldn't be or not, the people that they kill, tend to be the ones that'd sooner kill them, accidents happen, but the british army have a really good record when it comes to civilian casualties.

They join the army for similar reasons to my own. For me, it was the fast fast track to Chartered Engineers status, it was uni for free. For them, it's getting away from their home town, it's the mates, it's the jobs you can get after, it's the adventure. It's not killing people for money.

A lot of the time it could be viewed as economic conscription. Fuck all jobs, no educational opportunities - join the army!

[Fiend_85]

That wasn't the case for me, and isn't for all the armed forces scholarship and OTC guys on my course.

[Blagsta]

It was like that for some mates of mine. A class thing - the OTC and scholarships don't tend to be working class lads from deprived areas.

[Fiend_85]

No absolutly, I'm just saying it's not universally true.

[Blagsta]

Yeah, I know that. People with money become officers and do safer jobs.

[Flashman's Ghost]

Yeah, I know that. People with money become officers and do safer jobs.

You don't know much about the role of officers then. There's no way as an officer I was going to sit back and let my men go into danger when I didn't go with them. Nor would my colleagues.

Look at the casulties in Iraq you'll see a fair smattering of officers there.

Fuck look, at Goose Green in the Falklands 17 dead overall including one Lt-Col, 2 captains and 1 lieutenant.

In WW1 the poisition with the highest proportion of casualties was platoon, with company commanders not far behind.

[Blagsta]

Note I said "safer" not "safe".

[Flashman's Ghost]

Note I said "safer" not "safe".

But that's not true either - at least in the British Army, which has always put great store by officers leading their men.

It may be true by the time you get to rank of general than you're less likely to be shot than a corporal, but then most RSMs aren't leading bayonet charges either.

[Fiend_85]

Yeah, I know that. People with money become officers and do safer jobs.
I agree with NQA, the only thing that made me safer was being a woman and not being allowed to serve "front-line" not that it exists anymore.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

even humanitarian/ peacekeeping whatever still are trained to kill. To be a cook in the army you still have to complete your basic training.
If you go in to the army without realising that you will be trained to kill and be indoctrinated with a certain mentality (that you probably have to have a bit to even want to join) then youre much mistaken.
My 17 year old step brother wants to join for the same reason as you Fiend. free university and he`d probably be put up as officer material pretty quickly tbh, but I still hate the idea.

[morrocan roll]

if our troops have been trained to protect the c itezens of this country ...what the hell they doing in iraq and afghanistan ?
christians wanting to join the army?
didn't your boss tell you to put down your sword?

[Fiend_85]

:) I wasn't a christian at the time. But I've got a mate who's just joined up, and I'm sure he's put the proper consideration into it.

[morrocan roll]

i have a few mates in the foirces ...i'll be going to a july fourth celebration with some of them and some yanks in amsterdam.
be interesting to see what some of them have to say for themselves having been killing for the last few years.

[Babyshambler]

I could only guess where you got that "thought" from.

What are you talking about?

Fair point, but exactly how are soldiers protecting "our" country in Iraq? I'm sure the citizens of Haditha are thrilled to have such fine, upstanding moralistic men looking after their interests.

Those photos are blatantly posed and Western-media friendly. Nice thought in posting them, but the reality is far different.

Our troops aren't protecting the UK. But then, where did I say I was in favour of the war in Iraq? I didn't, and I'm not.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

. You also get paid more which made it ok.
yer, thats true.

[katralla]

Funny. What are they doing in the first one? praying? I hope there's no one listening, for their sakes...

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Funny. What are they doing in the first one? praying? I hope there's no one listening, for their sakes...
yer, "dear god, I know youre cool wiv us killin people an shit, were only doin this 4 U y`know, cos we no U fink America is da Gr8st evAr!"

[katralla]

yer, "dear god, I know youre cool wiv us killin people an shit, were only doin this 4 U y`know, cos we no U fink America is da Gr8st evAr!"

"God bless America. Give us the strength, dear Lord, to rid this world of evil regimes, dear Lord. God bless America. Amen."

[Teh_Gerbil]

"God?"
"Yes?"
"This war is suck, man. I can't shoot civilians, but the terrorists blend in. I can't tell who is who, what should I do, man?"
"You think I care? You broke my ten commandments long ago."
"But who else will listen? I thought you loved all men, anyway, and forgave sin?"
"I gave up on this planet LONG ago."
"Oh, right, man."

[Fiend_85]

Maybe they're praying to go home safe, praying that their families are ok, praying that they don't have to make a life or death choice that day, praying that no-one will try to kill them. I'm a little disgusted that you would deny their humanity with your mockery because they're in the army.

[katralla]

lol. I'm not denying their humanity... It is exactly aspects of their humanity I am mocking...

[Fiend_85]

Don't forget that you have them too. We are all the same, all have the same impulses. To say otherwise IS to deny their humanity, mock them you're mocking yourself. They're average blokes most of them. They don't take cash for blood, they get paid because that's the only chance they had.

[katralla]

aw, no.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Don't forget that you have them too. We are all the same, all have the same impulses. To say otherwise IS to deny their humanity, mock them you're mocking yourself. They're average blokes most of them. They don't take cash for blood, they get paid because that's the only chance they had.
bollocks.
Youre kidding yourself. Humanity isnt about joining an organisation that starts/joins in wars. Theyre not just ordinary everyday blokes. Theyre trained killers and they are nothing like me.
Theyre hitmen. Dress it up how you like. if the officer in charge told them to kill someone, theyd do it. They have to.
If you cant handle the thought of killing someone then the army isnt really a good idea for you. Itd be stupid to go into that and think, well fingers crossed, hopefully I wont have to kill anyone at all.
Its what its all about. Theyre not a peaceful organisation. Youre thick if you think it is.

[Fiend_85]

thanks. I realise what the army does. But you're fooling yourself if you really think anyone on here is essentially different, because you're not.

[Disillusioned]

Youre kidding yourself. Humanity isnt about joining an organisation that starts/joins in wars. Theyre not just ordinary everyday blokes. Theyre trained killers and they are nothing like me.

Absolutely. They're a lot better than you.

Unless you’re an absolutist pacifist that rejects personal self-defence the armed forces is a form of collective self-defence. Allied troops that fought Nazi Germany were not inhumane. There is nothing inherently inhumane about joining the armed forces unless you do not believe a nation has a right to self-defence.

War is sometimes necessary, or do you think Britain was wrong to fight Nazi Germany? Or the NATO campaign in Kosovo?

Theyre hitmen. Dress it up how you like. if the officer in charge told them to kill someone, theyd do it. They have to.

No they're not. You don't really have any idea how wars work do you? An Iraqi is rude to a British officer, that officer doesn't then order a soldier to shoot the Iraqi. In WWII officers didn't go around pointing at random Germans and asking soldiers to shoot them...Really what are you on about?

Theyre not a peaceful organisation. Youre thick if you think it is.

:confused: The armed forces isn't some kind of inherent community of warmongers. It's subordinate to elected politicians, it carries out the policies of democratically elected governments. There's all sorts of circumstances the forces are used in; peacekeeping, humanitarian disasters as well as war. And unfortunately the latter is sometimes necessary.

[Kentish]

bollocks.
Youre kidding yourself. Humanity isnt about joining an organisation that starts/joins in wars. Theyre not just ordinary everyday blokes. Theyre trained killers and they are nothing like me.
Theyre hitmen. Dress it up how you like. if the officer in charge told them to kill someone, theyd do it. They have to.
If you cant handle the thought of killing someone then the army isnt really a good idea for you. Itd be stupid to go into that and think, well fingers crossed, hopefully I wont have to kill anyone at all.
Its what its all about. Theyre not a peaceful organisation. Youre thick if you think it is.
What senseless drivel.

We all know that the armed services are called upon to kill people. Everyone who joins up must be prepared for that possibility. But to suggest that soldiers sign up to do that, or that they have no feeling about having to take a shot is just idiotic.

[Disillusioned]

What senseless drivel.

:thumb: I think that sums it up, about all that needs to be said really.

[Lacy]

What senseless drivel.



Agreed.

When you know fuck all about something it's better to keep your mouth shut, then to spout out a load of crap :thumb:

[Flashman's Ghost]

bollocks.
Youre kidding yourself. Humanity isnt about joining an organisation that starts/joins in wars. Theyre not just ordinary everyday blokes. Theyre trained killers and they are nothing like me.
If you cant handle the thought of killing someone then the army isnt really a good idea for you. Itd be stupid to go into that and think, well fingers crossed, hopefully I wont have to kill anyone at all.
Its what its all about. Theyre not a peaceful organisation. Youre thick if you think it is.

Quite possibly the most moronic rubbish I've seen on this baord.

Youre kidding yourself. Humanity isnt about joining an organisation that starts/joins in wars. Theyre not just ordinary everyday blokes. Theyre trained killers

Actually they are every day blokes. Chances are yu'd meet your average squaddie and be unable to tell him apart from your average eighteen your old. You'd get muddled up between students and subalterns if you saw one in the street.

and they are nothing like me.

That's because most of them don't talk judgemental, ill-informed bollocks.

Theyre hitmen. Dress it up how you like. if the officer in charge told them to kill someone, theyd do it. They have to.

No they're wouldn't. If it is an illegal order, not only do they have the right to refuse, they are under an obligation to refuse.

If you cant handle the thought of killing someone then the army isnt really a good idea for you. Itd be stupid to go into that and think, well fingers crossed, hopefully I wont have to kill anyone at all.

Well the first sentence is right, but the second is so off the wall its bouncing down the street like a pogo stick. I kept my fingers crossed I didn't have to kill anyone. if the situation demanded it I would have done, but all in all I'd rather be having a drink down the mess than shooting someone dead. Most of the soldiers I knew didn't want to kill people. Those who joined the army because they did want to kill are soon weeded out - the last thing your average infantry battalion wants is a psychotic who just wants to slot someone for fun.

[wheresmyplacebo]

bollocks.
Youre kidding yourself. Humanity isnt about joining an organisation that starts/joins in wars. Theyre not just ordinary everyday blokes. Theyre trained killers and they are nothing like me.
Theyre hitmen. Dress it up how you like. if the officer in charge told them to kill someone, theyd do it. They have to.
If you cant handle the thought of killing someone then the army isnt really a good idea for you. Itd be stupid to go into that and think, well fingers crossed, hopefully I wont have to kill anyone at all.
Its what its all about. Theyre not a peaceful organisation. Youre thick if you think it is.

why after some thought, i decided to not join RAF, yeh i'd be just an air traffic control guy, but i'd be aiding planes in blowing up civilians aka collateral

[Bullseye]

Well said NQA, very well said indeed!

[SuzyCreamcheese]

What senseless drivel.

We all know that the armed services are called upon to kill people. Everyone who joins up must be prepared for that possibility. But to suggest that soldiers sign up to do that, or that they have no feeling about having to take a shot is just idiotic.
I didnt suggest soldiers sign up just to kill people, but they sign up being ok with the fact they might have to, which is why I could never do it, and why theyre not like me.
They are trained to kill - deny that?
Why is that senseless drivel?
They are trained to kill, they have to have a certain mentality to want to go into the army in the first place.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

and I am a pacifist, but self defense is different, but it seems to me, a big part of the army isnt even about self defense at all. Look at the last two wars, unless you want to attack someone, and then when they hit you back, and then you kill them, thats self defense?

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Agreed.

When you know fuck all about something it's better to keep your mouth shut, then to spout out a load of crap :thumb:
If youre gonna give advice, its best if its something youve tried and tested yourself, which im not sure it is Lacy.

[Makoto]

and I am a pacifist, but self defense is different, but it seems to me, a big part of the army isnt even about self defense at all. Look at the last two wars, unless you want to attack someone, and then when they hit you back, and then you kill them, thats self defense?

When they hit back at you, your defending yourself no matter who starts it. If you start a fight down the pub and some fella hits you, your going to try and defend youself even if it is hitting him back.

[Flashman's Ghost]

When they hit back at you, your defending yourself no matter who starts it. If you start a fight down the pub and some fella hits you, your going to try and defend youself even if it is hitting him back.

But that's not pacifism. pacifism is when some chap is beating the living shit out his girlfriend and you sit back and let it happen, but feel morally superior by telling the people who lay him out that 'violence isn't the way'

[Teh_Gerbil]

Pacifism is a load of twaddle.

And yes, Soldiers are good everyday blokes. And they drink hard, I tell you... and have great parties. :yippe:

Soldiers, at the end of the day, do their job and do it well. Thing is in Iraq... they are trying to do someone ELSES job. That of the Police.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

But that's not pacifism. pacifism is when some chap is beating the living shit out his girlfriend and you sit back and let it happen, but feel morally superior by telling the people who lay him out that 'violence isn't the way'
now THATS a load of bollocks.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Pacifism is a load of twaddle.

And yes, Soldiers are good everyday blokes. And they drink hard, I tell you... and have great parties. :yippe:

Soldiers, at the end of the day, do their job and do it well. Thing is in Iraq... they are trying to do someone ELSES job. That of the Police.
I live in Colchester, a major Garrison town and home to the army jail. Yes they drink hard, and cause most of the trouble in the streets at night.
My ex husband was an ex paratrooper and wilfully admits that they were encouraged to go out and have fights, its seen as part and parcel of it. maybe that was just his lot, but i very much doubt it.
OK im sure some of them are nice blokes and are just doing their job guv, but thats not the side I see on a friday night walking through the town.

[Bullseye]

Pacifism is NEVER under any circumstances using violence ever! If you fight back, your not a pacifist at all.

And soldiers are good blokes on the whole and are not encouraged to go out and cause trouble and disgrace themselves or their fellow soldiers who sign up to defend their nation and protect its citizens.

[Guest]

Pacifist is military related by definition... Not everyday life related...

pac·i·fism Audio pronunciation of "pacifist" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ps-fzm)
n.

1. The belief that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully.
2.
1. Opposition to war or violence as a means of resolving disputes.
2. Such opposition demonstrated by refusal to participate in military action.

[Kentish]

I didnt suggest soldiers sign up just to kill people, but they sign up being ok with the fact they might have to, which is why I could never do it, and why theyre not like me.
They are trained to kill - deny that?
Why is that senseless drivel?
They are trained to kill, they have to have a certain mentality to want to go into the army in the first place.
Of course they're trained for violent conflict - the British Army wouldn't be much good if its soldiers weren't trained to use weapons.

The rest of your drivel is simply rhetoric. And not very impressive rhetoric at that.

[Lacy]

If youre gonna give advice, its best if its something youve tried and tested yourself, which im not sure it is Lacy.

Oh yeah cos you've been in the army ain't ya :rolleyes:

My dad was in the army for 23 years, my uncle has been in it for 20. I think i might know a little something having been brought up amongst them all for like 20 years.

[Blagsta]

...although, to be fair, its gonna make you biased too.

[Lacy]

...although, to be fair, its gonna make you biased too.

What me?

[Disillusioned]

and I am a pacifist, but self defense is different, but it seems to me, a big part of the army isnt even about self defense at all. Look at the last two wars, unless you want to attack someone, and then when they hit you back, and then you kill them, thats self defense?

There is not a single definition for pacifism.

Some pacifists completely oppose any form of violence, they reject any notion of self-defence. Others accept the idea of self-defence but do not believe it extends to a community of people (a country). Then I think there are some people who call themselves biological/nuclear pacifists who oppose biological/nuclear warfare because of its indiscriminate effects. There's been others, particularly in the anti-war movement back during the Vietnam war who called themselves pacifists but had supported US involvement in WWII. Pacifism is a broad term really...

Pacifism doesn't distinguish between good and bad and through failing to stop bad (e.g. Nazis) it's promoting bad...That said a lot of pacifists are Christians who've done a bit of picking and choosing from the Bible to reach a pacifist interpretation, mixed in with a naive belief that humans don't need to fight bad in the world but God will ensure good will somehow prevail. (I guess these people are unfamiliar with what happened in Rwanda and Auschwitz...)

I've always thought really you have to be pretty immature and idealist (as well as historically and politically ignorant...and er out of touch with reality) to call yourself a pacifist. Hmm.

[Blagsta]

What me?

Yes, you.

[morrocan roll]

I've always thought really you have to be pretty immature and idealist (as well as historically and politically ignorant...and er out of touch with reality) to call yourself a pacifist. Hmm.
there are many intelectuals who are quakers ...i don't think these people are out of touch with realiuty.
they make an informed choice and refuse to play your game ...to the point where many people would prefer to be jailed tortured and killed ...before playing this insane game.
some people are imprisoned or killed for killing.
some people end up in the same situation for refusing to kill.
wheres the sanity?
imagine two such men sharing a cell.

[Lacy]

Yes, you.

Not really.

I just thought she was wrong in what she was saying. No point making sweeping generalisations about a whole group of people just cos a couple of them fight when they're pissed.

[Blagsta]

Not really.

I just thought she was wrong in what she was saying. No point making sweeping generalisations about a whole group of people just cos a couple of them fight when they're pissed.

So the fact that you come from an army family isn't going to influence your view? I don't think so.

[Lacy]

So the fact that you come from an army family isn't going to influence your view? I don't think so.

Nah not really. I only objected to her making out that everyone in the army is in it to kill people.

I'm sure there are people that are nutters that join the army, but in my experience not all are like that.

[Disillusioned]

there are many intelectuals who are quakers ...i don't think these people are out of touch with realiuty.
they make an informed choice and refuse to play your game ...to the point where many people would prefer to be jailed tortured and killed ...before playing this insane game.

Perhaps, yeah. I have more respect really for a pacifist whose views are influenced by religious beliefs. I can respect that a lot more than someone who holds pacifist views with no real religious pretext because there's not really any secular justification for pacifism.

[wheresmyplacebo]

Perhaps, yeah. I have more respect really for a pacifist whose views are influenced by religious beliefs. I can respect that a lot more than someone who holds pacifist views with no real religious pretext because there's not really any secular justification for pacifism.

of course there is, there's a suck thing called ethics and refusing to be involved in violence no matter the consequences, or reufising to support the military wherever possible

[Disillusioned]

of course there is, there's a suck thing called ethics and refusing to be involved in violence no matter the consequences, or reufising to support the military wherever possible

I don't see any justification there...

With the exception of religious reasons relevant to some religious people there is imo no justification for say, opposing the Allied fight against Nazi Germany.

[morrocan roll]

the greenham common women ...some who lived in trees and holes in the ground for years ...were mostly not there from any religous comitment.
many of these women were willing to go ...and many did ...to prison for peace by peacful means.
i like to think they managed to retain their dignity all these years later.

[morrocan roll]

I don't see any justification there...

With the exception of religious reasons relevant to some religious people there is imo no justification for say, opposing the Allied fight against Nazi Germany.
many did oppose it and went to jail ...not from a religous perspective.
they would rather be a slave than kill another man.

[Flashman's Ghost]

now THATS a load of bollocks.

Seems like a perfectly good analogy to me...

[Flashman's Ghost]

many did oppose it and went to jail ...not from a religous perspective.
they would rather be a slave than kill another man.

And they'd rather than they kept their lily white consciences clean than kill to save another human.

At the end of the day pacifism is not 'I won't kill to save myself', but 'My conscience is more important than the lives of others'. Sorry, I think that is a self-centred view and I have absolutely no respect for pacifists at all, religous or not.

[Flashman's Ghost]

the greenham common women ...some who lived in trees and holes in the ground for years ...were mostly not there from any religous comitment.
many of these women were willing to go ...and many did ...to prison for peace by peacful means.
i like to think they managed to retain their dignity all these years later.

Most of them weren't pacifists either - they were anti-nuclear which is different.

[morrocan roll]

And they'd rather than they kept their lily white consciences clean than kill to save another human.

At the end of the day pacifism is not 'I won't kill to save myself', but 'My conscience is more important than the lives of others'. Sorry, I think that is a self-centred view and I have absolutely no respect for pacifists at all, religous or not.

they are obviously becoming an endangered species which i find quite alarming.

[Fiend_85]

OK im sure some of them are nice blokes and are just doing their job guv, but thats not the side I see on a friday night walking through the town.

I bet they're the same as the boys on the way back from the union on a weds night. They're drunk blokes, they're all the same.

Stop acting like you're better.

[Flashman's Ghost]

they are obviously becoming an endangered species which i find quite alarming.

Yep, when there's conscription on the cards and the only way to stop the Panzers rolling down the street is to risk getting yourself killed flying a spitfire or driving a Sherman tank the number of pacifists rockets up. Funny that :chin:

[Teh_Gerbil]

Yep, when there's conscription on the cards and the only way to stop the Panzers rolling down the street is to risk getting yourself killed flying a spitfire or driving a Sherman tank the number of pacifists rockets up. Funny that :chin:

*apologies*

But I have to say it... surley it'd be "killed flying a spitfire or driving a Churchill tank"

:p But a very true statement, either way.

[wheresmyplacebo]

I don't see any justification there...

With the exception of religious reasons relevant to some religious people there is imo no justification for say, opposing the Allied fight against Nazi Germany.

well there is, its opposing the fighting all together which if everyone had that attitude there wouldnt of been an army on either side

pragamitism =/ conscience

personally i see fighting as a last resort, sadly enough half the time it's seen as 1 of 1st options

[Flashman's Ghost]

*apologies*

But I have to say it... surley it'd be "killed flying a spitfire or driving a Churchill tank"

:p But a very true statement, either way.

Used Sherman deliberately - they didn't call it the Tommy cooker for nothing, your chances of getting out before burning to death was pretty low.

[Flashman's Ghost]

personally i see fighting as a last resort, sadly enough half the time it's seen as 1 of 1st options

So do most soldiers - funnily enough there the ones who pay with their lives...

[wheresmyplacebo]

So do most soldiers - funnily enough there the ones who pay with their lives...

they're the ones who chose to, i personally wouldn't take up a job that in its purest sense, is being a killing machine

the japanese army is a self defence force for example, or the swiss who are extremely well armed also, but only use it in self defence

thats the sort of armies i encourage, giving a country the ability to defend itself yeh i dont mind and i advocate, signing up to go on highly unethical and unplanned/badly planned invasions i dont agree with

in case of 2nd world war, we noyl got involved becuase we promised poland we'd defend them if the nazi's attacked, and the nazis did so we joined in

the 91 gulf war we stopped saddam invading kuwait and forced them to retreat

the recent gulf war, well we went there based upon lies and false pretenses, mainly to boost contractors profits and make it seem like we're doing something, and it was poorly planned what to do afterwards, especially on the american side of things in terms of winning hearts and minds

[Indrid Cold]

IMHO, to join the army means to make yourself a tool of other people.

DISCLAIMER: That doesn't mean that I think armies are useless, or that you must be stupid or evil to join. The first line of this message means nothing more than it says.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

I bet they're the same as the boys on the way back from the union on a weds night. They're drunk blokes, they're all the same.

Stop acting like you're better.
I think i am better than people who go kicking other peoples heads in on a weekend.
I dont think we have that much trouble with people coming back from the union tbh

[Kentish]

the japanese army is a self defence force for example, or the swiss who are extremely well armed also, but only use it in self defence
Two poor examples. It's easy for the Germans and the Japanese to have small defensive armies because they have been the aggressors in the most recent global conflict. And the Swiss? The Swiss remained "neutral" whilst millions were being murdered in Nazi Germany.

I'd rather be protected by the British Army thanks.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

anyway thats going off topic.
Why did you start the thread anyway Fiend?
Soldiers are nice boys. they all pray, they love little foriegn kids and puppies and kittens and stuff, and they wouldnt hurt a fly. They hate the idea of war and they never have to kill anybody.
Is that better?

Im not sure what the fuck you want me to say?

[Kentish]

Im not sure what the fuck you want me to say?
Well fuck off out of the thread then.

I expect the thread was designed to inject some humanity back into the conflict, since all we here about Iraq is how many civilians or how many British soldiers have been killed by insurgents each day.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Well fuck off out of the thread then.

I expect the thread was designed to inject some humanity back into the conflict, since all we here about Iraq is how many civilians or how many British soldiers have been killed by insurgents each day.
fuck off out of the thread because im saying something you dont want to hear?
How dare you.
there is no humanity in the conflict. A couple of staged photos and thats it!

[Kentish]

fuck off out of the thread because im saying something you dont want to hear?
How dare you.
there is no humanity in the conflict. A couple of staged photos and thats it!
Do get over yourself. You've added nothing to the thread save sanctimonious pomposity.

[Indrid Cold]

There definitely is humanity there. Not everyone there is the kind of person who thinks "Eugh, muslims. I have to kill as many of them as possible."
Don't forget that most, if not all, of those who went there believe they're doing the right thing. Sacrificing themselves to save their friends and relatives at home (I call it brainwashing in this specific case, but that's beside the point). They do have many things to pray for.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Do get over yourself. You've added nothing to the thread save sanctimonious pomposity.
Thats the way you choose to view what ive said, but I stand by it. Why dont you debate it properly if you disagree rather than telling me to fuck off out of the thread or calling me names.

[Kentish]

Thats the way you choose to view what ive said, but I stand by it. Why dont you debate it properly if you disagree rather than telling me to fuck off out of the thread or calling me names.
I don't recall calling you names, and I suggested you leave it because you've added nothing to the thread. You've taken the piss out of people who pray and you've belittled the armed forces. You've also insulted everyone who chooses to pick up a weapon and put his life on the line for the rest of us. Now, without wishing to sound too much like Col Nathan Jessop, if you're not prepared to defend the freedoms of the UK yet are willing to live under the protection that the Army provides, then you may as well go forth and multiply because you have no right to criticise to motives of those who do.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

I live here because i was born here. It doesnt mean i have to sit here and sing the praises of the government or the army. I take the piss out of hypocrites who are fighting in an unjust war, and then have audacity to pray - who the hell are they praying to?

The army are not putting their life on the line for the rest of us or defending the freedom of the UK. Are you having a laugh? Theyre putting their life on the line because Tony Blair and GWB told them to, and that wasnt because we were in danger.

[Kentish]

I take the piss out of hypocrites who are fighting in an unjust war, and then have audacity to pray - who the hell are they praying to?
Such arrogance!

What gives you the right to dictate the beliefs of those in the armed services? Does it matter if they are frontline troops or army medics or translators? Why on earth would you deny them the right to pray? Why would you want to take the piss out of them?
The army are not putting their life on the line for the rest of us or defending the freedom of the UK. Are you having a laugh? Theyre putting their life on the line because Tony Blair and GWB told them to, and that wasnt because we were in danger.
It doesn't matter to those men and women whether the evidence was faulty. We are in the luxurious position of being able to debate the rights and wrongs of the miltary action. In fact, most of us disagreed with the war, but that doesn't make a difference to whether we want our armed forces to do a good job, to support the rebuilding of Iraq and to support the local people to defeat tyranny.

I'd rather they never went there and I'd hope they are planning the withdrawal. But to take the piss out of the ordinary folk who are risking their lives is too much for me to swallow.

[Guest]

I don't recall calling you names, and I suggested you leave it because you've added nothing to the thread. You've taken the piss out of people who pray and you've belittled the armed forces. You've also insulted everyone who chooses to pick up a weapon and put his life on the line for the rest of us.

When was the last time the English army did fight do defend its citizens...
Not too sure the last time they went to war it was to defend their countries or, your, our lifes...

There is some good and bad men in the military like everywhere else, some do join hoping they will never have to fight or kill anyone, but well doesn't matter what position you aim for in the military you are train to do so anyway...

Some men did war without even wanted too, but by choosing to go to the army that what you have to expect one day or an other, and if you really don't want to go war or ever have to kill then maybe an other career than the military would be better...

As for experience, I have heard a lot of story about war, from my step grand-dad that fought 2 wars and is even the president of the last fighters of those wars and yes there is some humanitary here and there, but there is a big hate as well as some big horror stories that were puerly cruel and not military at all...

As I said, there is some good, there is some bad, like in everything else in life, but war by definition are not pretty thing and in every single war there will b some innocent killed...

Debate about war and military people are useless, pretty much like any other debates, there is always 2 side of the story, there is always the few nice pictures reported here and there and the bad ones as well... It is nice however to see some good ones as well and not hear about all the bad side al the tme...

I myself hate war and doesn't hate for say the military guys, but more those who send them in war when it is not needed or when it is for something else than for protecting their own countries and citizens...

At the end of the end everyone is entitled to their own opinions and views and that's what debates are all about, any posts as long as they are related the topic of a thread are good to take... And because someone else opinion and views do not match with yours, even if they even offend you, there is no reason for it to be shut down either...

[SuzyCreamcheese]

kentish, why do you seem to think youre more entitled to your view than I am to mine.
This is the fucking debating forum. Youre arrogant about your views, im arrogant about mine. I think I could ask YOU what youre actually bringing to the thread, because as far as i can see its fuck all, apart from a chance to have a go at me for some unknown reason. Not that I cant take it. I still stand by my beliefs.

[Kentish]

Some men did war without even wanted too, but by choosing to go to the army that what you have to expect one day or an other, and if you really don't want to go war or ever have to kill then maybe an other career than the military would be better...
Agreed.
As I said, there is some good, there is some bad, like in everything else in life, but war by definition are not pretty thing and in every single war there will b some innocent killed...
Agreed.
Debate about war and military people are useless, pretty much like any other debates, there is always 2 side of the story, there is always the few nice pictures reported here and there and the bad ones as well... It is nice however to see some good ones as well and not hear about all the bad side al the tme...
Precisely. Which is what this thread was about.
I myself hate war and doesn't hate for say the military guys, but more those who send them in war when it is not needed or when it is for something else than for protecting their own countries and citizens...
Agreed.
At the end of the end everyone is entitled to their own opinions and views and that's what debates are all about, any posts as long as they are related the topic of a thread are good to take... And because someone else opinion and views do not match with yours, even if they even offend you, there is no reason for it to be shut down either...
All I would like is for SCC to get off her high horse. :)

[Kentish]

kentish, why do you seem to think youre more entitled to your view than I am to mine.
This is the fucking debating forum. Youre arrogant about your views, im arrogant about mine. I think I could ask YOU what youre actually bringing to the thread, because as far as i can see its fuck all, apart from a chance to have a go at me for some unknown reason. Not that I cant take it. I still stand by my beliefs.
What "beliefs" are those then?

Can you not tolerate one thread that doesn't criticise the occupation of Iraq and shows the soldiers to be human beings?

[Yerascrote]

In my eyes...you are all cunts. :thumb:

[morrocan roll]

Yep, when there's conscription on the cards and the only way to stop the Panzers rolling down the street is to risk getting yourself killed flying a spitfire or driving a Sherman tank the number of pacifists rockets up. Funny that :chin:
thats an insult to men of peace and fortunately we have had many such people.
one day we'll look round and find we have no protesters ...no defiant and steadfast refusniks.
what a sad day that will be but i'm sure many will still think it worth fighting and dying for. :(

[Flashman's Ghost]

thats an insult to men of peace and fortunately we have had many such people.
one day we'll look round and find we have no protesters ...no defiant and steadfast refusniks.
what a sad day that will be but i'm sure many will still think it worth fighting and dying for. :(

But fortunately not too many...

[SuzyCreamcheese]

ive said what i wanted to say.
I am beginning to remember why i started avoiding the debate forum. When people run out of arguments they just start trying to silence opposing opinions.

[Fiend_85]

You hypocrite, the first thing, the very first thing you said in this thread was mocking self-righteousness.

Have a look at yourself, and remember, you are essentially the same as everyone else, the boys in the army, and the drunk students who start fights. You have the same impulses, and when push comes to shove, you show them, and you have.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

You hypocrite, the first thing, the very first thing you said in this thread was mocking self-righteousness.

Have a look at yourself, and remember, you are essentially the same as everyone else, the boys in the army, and the drunk students who start fights. You have the same impulses, and when push comes to shove, you show them, and you have.
where? :confused: I didnt mock self righteousness, i said that soldiers in a war zone that were praying, were hypocrites. They are.
Not that I actually care whether they pray or not, its probably more to do with religious hypocrisy rather than the fact they are soldiers tbh.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

unless of course they are praying to the God of war, which they might be, and then obviously i retract my statement.

anyway, i dont think were ever gonna agree on this. I just think that i think in a different way to you. fair do`s

[Fiend_85]

where? :confused: I didnt mock self righteousness, i said that soldiers in a war zone that were praying, were hypocrites

Why?

oh a btw, the FIRST thing you said was this OMG now I feel completely differently about war and stuff. i didnt realise soldiers liked cats too! seeing as you can't remember your own posts. Get off your high horse mate, you don't look too hot up there.

[Aladdin]

Far better to be a pacifist than a nacionalist warmongering scumbag who actually believes it is acceptable to use force on others for the sole purpose of "protecting their country's interests". Which of course reads as "protecting our business interests".

And of that type of people, sadly, are far too many around.

[Fiend_85]

Yes, but Aladdin, this thread isn't about that, most of the boys in the army aren't like that, they're just standard blokes.

The arse-monkeys who want to rape the rest of the world for their own gain will get what's coming to them.

[Aladdin]

I know. I'm sorry, I was actually addressing some earlier comments from Disillusioned about pacifists and pacifism but I should have quoted his comments first to ensure there was no confusion.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Why?

oh a btw, the FIRST thing you said was this seeing as you can't remember your own posts. Get off your high horse mate, you don't look too hot up there.
well tbh, its easy to say anybody who thinks differently to you and believes in what they say is *on their high horse* Its a bit of a crap comment to make in a debate. Im surprised at you.

[Fiend_85]

It's your arrogance that's letting you down mate, it's more than acceptable to think that the armed forces aren't for you, and that they go to war at times and places that aren't right.

But you seem to think you're actually a better person because you haven't joined the army, and you're not, and that is fact. You've completly ignored the circumstances surrounding 90% of squaddies reasons for joining up. You're more than happy to sit in your ivory tower and say "you joined, you clearly love guns and shooting people and treading on puppies".

[SuzyCreamcheese]

But you seem to think you're actually a better person because you haven't joined the army, and you're not, and that is fact. You've completly ignored the circumstances surrounding 90% of squaddies reasons for joining up. You're more than happy to sit in your ivory tower and say "you joined, you clearly love guns and shooting people and treading on puppies".
Bollocks, youre twisting it.
Of course If im anti-military, then im going to think im better for not being one of them - state the obvious. I think im better for not being part of an organisation I dislike! It doesnt mean I hate them all and wish them dead or anything cos i dont (charitable eh?)
I dislike the organisation, and most things it stands for, and I dislike the mentality that goes with it.
I hate the army as a whole rather than individual people, and Ill tell you what - ill compromise, because i know the army does surreptitious recruiting campaigns in a lot of poor areas where they have little/no job prospects, making it sound like fun fun fun, and entice people with their free degrees etc, so people can pretty much sign their life away (ok, not their whole life) without really thinking of the consequences.

The whole thing makes me feel quite cross

[Fiend_85]

So hate the army, hate the way they do things. But you mocked the individiuals, you judged them, and you should be ashamed.

This thread was never about where they're deployed, or how the MOD go about things, but about the real live people who are recruited, people like me, like my mates on my course, like the kids who go to cadets for something to do and stay on because the liked how they had friends, and a future for a change.

Principles are an expensive luxury sometimes, most people can't really afford to pass up a chance like the ones offered by the british armed forces just because they'll have to shoot at someone who will kill them if they don't.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

tbh, I can mock who the fuck I like. Im not ashamed of anything, and I dont see who the hell you or Kuntish (sp) are to tell me what I should be ashamed of, What i should think, who i should like or dislike, what personal politics I should have.
If you disagree with the points I make, then debate those please, and avoid telling me that I should be ashamed of my views.
Ive had my opinions changed in debates before, but never by those sort of tactics.

[Fiend_85]

I'm saying you should be ashamed because that's how I feel when I realise I've been so very judgemental. I do try to keep my own standards before expecting someone else to.

I don't care if you change your view of the army. But for the last time, this isn't about the MoD or about where they're deployed, this is about ordinary men and women, that you pretend you're better than.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Fiend, I think youre being extremely judgemental of me. Can you get off your high horse please. Youre no better than me. You should be ashamed of yourself

[Fiend_85]

I'm definitely no better than you. We're all the same, personally I expected a slightly better comeback, and you haven't answered the question up the page, but I'm not better than you.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

good, can you stop patronising me then please.
I dont think im better than you either, especially since you didnt actually join the army.
Im probably not making myself properly clear.
If someone does bad things, or thinks in a way that I really dislike, or is part of an organisation i really disagree with, then yes. i feel that I am a better person.
It doesnt mean I think they deserve to die, or that I even wish them harm, and in actual fact, i wish almost everyone well in their lives, junkies, murderers, rapists, soldiers policemen, terrorists etc. I know theyve ALL got their reasons for the life they lead. Nothing happens in a void.
For the purposes of debate i say what I think. I have reasons for thinking the way I do, and you have reasons for thinking the way you do. You may think im arrogant, I struggle to see why you dont all agree with me tbh. It seems completely logical to me.
Im not hurting anyone - I strive for peace. I thought most people did, but obviously they dont.

[katralla]

I follow your logic SCC. It also appears to me that whilst a few have posted a similar response to the pictures and with regard to their opinion on armies/this war, it is only you who has been 'attacked' in a particularly ungracious manner. Your horse looks pretty to me *eiup- Katralla climbs aboard with no intention of a fight, merely a peaceful gathering of like minds*.

[Fiend_85]

good, can you stop patronising me then please.
I dont think im better than you either, especially since you didnt actually join the army.
Im probably not making myself properly clear.
If someone does bad things, or thinks in a way that I really dislike, or is part of an organisation i really disagree with, then yes. i feel that I am a better person.
It doesnt mean I think they deserve to die, or that I even wish them harm, and in actual fact, i wish almost everyone well in their lives, junkies, murderers, rapists, soldiers policemen, terrorists etc. I know theyve ALL got their reasons for the life they lead. Nothing happens in a void.
For the purposes of debate i say what I think. I have reasons for thinking the way I do, and you have reasons for thinking the way you do. You may think im arrogant, I struggle to see why you dont all agree with me tbh. It seems completely logical to me.
Im not hurting anyone - I strive for peace. I thought most people did, but obviously they dont.

That seems really contradictory to me. Nothing happens in a void, yet you're a better person because you didn't have to take what was given?

I remind you and everyone else here, we all have the same impulses, and we all think things we'd rather not admit, and you SCC I bet if you were pushed hard enough would have a glorious image in your mind of a gun in your hand and my head exploding in a red mist... not that you'd admit it, but for a moment you'd enjoy it, because we're all the same.

[morrocan roll]

and you SCC I bet if you were pushed hard enough would have a glorious image in your mind of a gun in your hand and my head exploding in a red mist... not that you'd admit it, but for a moment you'd enjoy it, because we're all the same.
what a strange thing to say ...i never have such images in my minds eye.
are you well?

[Senor Miguel]

ooh a bit of controversy, that's what the p+d board's been missing.......i think SCC has perhaps a simplistic view of the armed forces, that's not to say i don't agree with her......the bottom line is they're not protecting our lives in iraq and afghanistan, they're protecting the foreign interests of our government, and one of the side effects happens to be thousands of dead civilians.......as a soldier you've got to live with that on your conscience, i don't think the majority go out looking to kill people for fun, if you're being shot at you have to make some hard decisions and i'm sure plenty of them question their judgement at times......i honestly think most people join the army to protect their country and see it as an honourable occupation, unfortunately they're just very misguided because they are just being used as a tool of the government, which at the end of the day is a tool of the rich elite........

[Fiend_85]

what a strange thing to say ...i never have such images in my minds eye.
are you well?
Like I said, it's not like we admit it to ourselves, or even other people. But I firmly believe that everyone is the same, and we are all more than capable of thinking horrible nasty things.

Not that we'd all act on them, just that we all have our moments.

[Kentish]

tbh, I can mock who the fuck I like. Im not ashamed of anything, and I dont see who the hell you or Kuntish (sp) are to tell me what I should be ashamed of, What i should think, who i should like or dislike, what personal politics I should have.
If you disagree with the points I make, then debate those please, and avoid telling me that I should be ashamed of my views.
Ive had my opinions changed in debates before, but never by those sort of tactics.
No one's telling you what to think or do.

It's been pointed out to you how sanctimonious your contribution to this thread has been. If you want to debate the rights and wrongs of armed forces feel free to do so, and we might even share the same view - I for one am anti-war and always have been. We owe a great debt to those who lost their lives defending our liberties through the two world wars, and twice it was declared: never again. I live to that ideal.

However, if you will blast into a thread by taking the piss out of ordinary servicemen and women who happen to be serving in the Army in Iraq then expect to be pulled up for it. It's not big and it's not clever. And to assert that you are "better" than somebody else who differs from you in their viewpoint is arrogance in the extreme, and how you can expect to be respected when that is your level is beyond me.

And to katralla, apologies, my posts are directed at anyone taking cheap shots at other human beings who are risking their lives for yours.

[Blagsta]

tbh, I have far less time for privilidged people who go into the armed forces. Young lads from areas of high unemployment and not many educational opportunities I can understand. Middle class kids or upper class kids going into the armed forces I have far less understanding.

[katralla]

I think invoking the 'on your behalf' claim is a cheap shot.

[Blagsta]

And to katralla, apologies, my posts are directed at anyone taking cheap shots at other human beings who are risking their lives for yours.

If you think the soldiers in Iraq are in any way risking their lives for mine (or yours), you need your head examined.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

I follow your logic SCC. It also appears to me that whilst a few have posted a similar response to the pictures and with regard to their opinion on armies/this war, it is only you who has been 'attacked' in a particularly ungracious manner. Your horse looks pretty to me *eiup- Katralla climbs aboard with no intention of a fight, merely a peaceful gathering of like minds*.
*gallups into the sunset* :thumb:

[Disillusioned]

tbh, I have far less time for privilidged people who go into the armed forces. Young lads from areas of high unemployment and not many educational opportunities I can understand. Middle class kids or upper class kids going into the armed forces I have far less understanding.

Fascinating. I'm not classist, whatever class someone who joins the armed forces is they have my respect and support.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

and you SCC I bet if you were pushed hard enough would have a glorious image in your mind of a gun in your hand and my head exploding in a red mist... not that you'd admit it, but for a moment you'd enjoy it, because we're all the same.
:eek2: :eek2:

[Blagsta]

Like I said, it's not like we admit it to ourselves, or even other people. But I firmly believe that everyone is the same, and we are all more than capable of thinking horrible nasty things.

As it happens, I agree with this. Human's are capable of horrible shitty things. However its usually when placed in extreme positions, under emotional stress - we can revert back to very childlike black & white, self-centred and destructive behaviour. However, people who sell themselves to the government to do politicians bidding/killing when they have other options in life - well people like that I have little empathy for.

[Blagsta]

Fascinating. I'm not classist, whatever class someone who joins the armed forces is they have my respect and support.

What's being "classist" got to do with anything? :confused:

[Disillusioned]

What's being "classist" got to do with anything? :confused:

I'm just saying that I (unlike yourself it would seem) support and respect everybody who joins the armed forces; whether they're working class, middle class or upper class.

[Blagsta]

I'm just saying that I (unlike yourself it would seem) support and respect everybody who joins the armed forces; whether they're working class, middle class or upper class.

What you really mean is that you don't give a shit that some people's life choices are severly limited by economic and social circumstances, which might lead them to making choices that people in better situations might not make.

[Fiend_85]

When I was still planning to join, as far as I was concerned the government would only ever send me to serve where I was needed and where it was legal and right for me to go. Some people still think that iraq and afganistan will ultimately be better because of wars there, even if the wars themselves were unnecessary uncalled for and unjustifiable. They at least have faith in the army, if not the government.

[Blagsta]

P.S.
If you think that recognising this fact is "classist", then you're even nuttier than I thought.

[Blagsta]

When I was still planning to join, as far as I was concerned the government would only ever send me to serve where I was needed and where it was legal and right for me to go. Some people still think that iraq and afganistan will ultimately be better because of wars there, even if the wars themselves were unnecessary uncalled for and unjustifiable. They at least have faith in the army, if not the government.

...except of course the army do the government's bidding.

[Fiend_85]

Yes, but the government only tell them where to go, not how to treat people when they're there, if you get me. The government don't make the decision when to bring out the berret instead of the combat helmet, or how and where to deploy etc, that's down to the COs

[Blagsta]

Maybe true in the British army, debateable in the US - see Abu Ghraib etc. However the fact remains that the army are there to do the bidding of the government which ultimately means the serving the needs of international capital.

[Fiend_85]

The british army is the best in the world, it's not for nothing their tag-line is "be the best". That's what I wanted, I wanted to be the best, part of the best, I wanted to be an engineer and fix tanks and be stupidly fit and all of that, unfortunatly that meant that I would also sooner or later send a tank in to shoot at some people, or shoot some people myself. But I'm not a bad person, or less of a person because the first thing I think about is, or thought about was, wow I'd have some awesome mates, and get a great job after I've served a few years, oo shiney uniform, or dude basic training is hard.

[Blagsta]

Thing is, you've had a good education, you're from a relatively comfortable family. You could do all that without joining the army. I don't think you're a bad person because of it though. I just think you maybe haven't thought through the moral consequences of your decision.

[Flashman's Ghost]

tbh, I have far less time for privilidged people who go into the armed forces. Young lads from areas of high unemployment and not many educational opportunities I can understand. Middle class kids or upper class kids going into the armed forces I have far less understanding.

Interesting job, sport, patriotism, wanting to make a difference, experience of meeting different people. Dozens of reasons really...

[Fiend_85]

Maybe I hadn't at the time, certainly. I don't think you always do when you're 17/18 and have been offered such a great oppurtunity, especially with 3/4 years of expensive education to look at and then maybe thinking, where am I going to work?

I am doing it all without the army, which is nice.

[Blagsta]

Interesting job, sport, patriotism, wanting to make a difference, experience of meeting different people. Dozens of reasons really...

...all of which you could do without joining the army.

[Blagsta]

Maybe I hadn't at the time, certainly. I don't think you always do when you're 17/18 and have been offered such a great oppurtunity, especially with 3/4 years of expensive education to look at and then maybe thinking, where am I going to work?

True dat.

I am doing it all without the army, which is nice.

I though you'd joined up? :confused:

[Fiend_85]

No, I didn't initially I was rejected because of an injury, now I'm not sure I want to join.

[Flashman's Ghost]

...all of which you could do without joining the army.

Possibly, but then I'd wouldn't have met some of the greatest people I've ever known. I certainly wouldn't have been able to paly nearly as much rugby as I did on work time, I wouldn't have lived in Germany, travelled to the Middle East, Canada, Kenya etc (or at least without being broke). And my active service included escoring food supplies and protecting people in Bosnia.


TBH I'm not looking for people to jump up and down and say the army's great. I am looking for some understanding that those who join the army, at all ranks, are not some bunch of psychos.

[Teh_Gerbil]

Fascinating. I'm not classist, whatever class someone who joins the armed forces is they have my respect and support.

I respect them all myself - but less those the middle and upper classes. Often, they join straight in at officer rank. Which does take the piss a bit. Or, if not, they'll get the cushy deals, the "safer" jobs (Although in Iraq, no-one is safe.).

And to take the piss a bit more, a mate of mine just joined Mechanised Infantry. Yup, he's the cannon fodder. Out to Afghanistan next year... I wish him the best of luck!

I don't get these people who hate our own Military though... they're only doing their job at the end of the day. Someone has to do it. I respect them for what they do.

I'd still rather join the RAF, mind.

[Blagsta]

Possibly, but then I'd wouldn't have met some of the greatest people I've ever known. I certainly wouldn't have been able to paly nearly as much rugby as I did on work time, I wouldn't have lived in Germany, travelled to the Middle East, Canada, Kenya etc (or at least without being broke). And my active service included escoring food supplies and protecting people in Bosnia.

You could have done all that without joining the army...

TBH I'm not looking for people to jump up and down and say the army's great. I am looking for some understanding that those who join the army, at all ranks, are not some bunch of psychos.

I know that. I do however think that you don't think for yourself as much as you could.

[Blagsta]

No, I didn't initially I was rejected because of an injury, now I'm not sure I want to join.

Ahhhh, I see.

[Flashman's Ghost]

You could have done all that without joining the army...

Not sure how. Ok theoretically I could have become a professional rugby player (though in practice I was good, but not that good). I could have travelled and skiied etc, but at a much greater financial cost. I certainly wouldn't have met the people I did or had such great camraderie outside.

Nor can I see who else would have done peacekeeping in Bos apart from the armed forces.

I know that. I do however think that you don't think for yourself as much as you could

Personally I think I think a lot about the ethics of soldiering. However I have come to a radically different conclusion that you. Now that's probably for a number of reasons, such as background and are philosophy on how the world works.

Also its possible to have views on things and also accept that I joined an organisation which limits my freedom to do or say certain things. But then as I've stated on an earlier thread each soldier has to have a moral line which they cannot cross, with on one side blind obedience to immoral orders (such as the rounding up and murder of Jews) and on the other the refusal of state servants to act in accordance with the wishes of the democratically elected government, and the risk that has of having democracy replaced by the will of the armed forces.