Is internet debating pointless?

[Toadborg]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1788774,00.html

Do you agree.

A tad cynical i think, occasionally someone makes a good point or offers some useful information so I don't think what we do here is entirely pointless.

At least I hope not given the time I and everyone else has spent here..........

[briggi]

I don't really agree.

I very strongly believe that airing your views by any method is never "pointless". I've learned a lot from some of the debates on here, and it's bolstered my views on a lot of topics.

Pretty cathartic, too, especially on here... ;)

[Aladdin]

Generally agree... we might discover interesting facts, we might concede the odd minor point, but on the whole we all believe to be in the right and subsconciously dismiss other people's POVs regardless of how well presented they are.

How many pro-Israeli government or pro-Palestinian cause people have been shown the error or their ways or made to change their stance?

How many Labour supporters have been made to change their vote to Tory, and viceversa?

How many pro-war peeps have changed their stance as a result of what they debated and learnt on internet forums?

Very few I suspect...

[ShyBoy]

I would disagree that its pointless, because there obviously is a point. But as Aladdin pointed out, people seldom change their minds about something online.

[sophia]

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[Fiend_85]

Generally agree... we might discover interesting facts, we might concede the odd minor point, but on the whole we all believe to be in the right and subsconciously dismiss other people's POVs regardless of how well presented they are.

How many pro-Israeli government or pro-Palestinian cause people have been shown the error or their ways or made to change their stance?

How many Labour supporters have been made to change their vote to Tory, and viceversa?

How many pro-war peeps have changed their stance as a result of what they debated and learnt on internet forums?

Very few I suspect...
Debating isn't always about making someone change their mind, it's about widening a subject, seeing other POV, having to think yourself and making them think. I personally still think that drugs are bad (mmkay), but that's not to say that I haven't learnt more about how they might best be handled by society through arguements on here.

[sophia]

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[Fiend_85]

I think that's true of almost everything in life, if you only do things to "win" then eventually all things are empty.

[Bullseye]

I think it is mostly pointless when someone comes on with a hugely self riteous, "im right and everyone else is wrong" attitude and doesnt debate or refuses to to debate on the grounds no one else can understand their genius explainations.

But when people actually do come on, debate, post links, and quotes and make good arguments, then it is worth the effort to read through and reply.

[wheresmyplacebo]

i think its good ive learnt a lot about different people see things, ive also conceded on some points and had some people concede in pms to me so it isnt


the title of the thread says why the net is a good thing :p

[ShyBoy]

I agree with this, but too many people don't.

The pointlessness arises when the goal of debate becomes winning rather than learning and understanding.

I get annoyed when people wont take time to read what ive put or think about it because they dont agree with it. I think thats the issue in a way for me, in real life if you say something its hard for them to ignore it (unless theyre good at debating), so if for example I was talking about Israel and I said 'how can you justify Israeli tanks blowing up this residential building' and rather than replying, they'll say 'how can you justify Palestinian terrorists blowing up people on buses?'.

Just seems to go round in a circle, and it does get to the point of 'point scoring'. But in a lot of debates you can learn a lot by reading thoroughly. I think sometimes people get hot headed, dont read properly and just post a knee-jerk response.

[Jim V]

Debating isn't always about making someone change their mind, it's about widening a subject, seeing other POV, having to think yourself and making them think. I personally still think that drugs are bad (mmkay), but that's not to say that I haven't learnt more about how they might best be handled by society through arguements on here.

:yes:

There's always been those two different ways to see debating; one would tend towards the idea that there is a correct or perfect answer - a truth - behind each question. People subscribing to that view are always going to want to change others opinions - to see a debate as pointless if it doesn't result in a direct change of opinion.

The other (and lets be honest it's a viewpoint from the slightly post-modern wankery school of life) is that huge issues aren't going to be resolved by finding some 'a priori' perfect answer - but rather that it is the journey or the debate itself that provides the benefits to those involved, by opening them to a wider viewpoint, or different perspective on their own.

I gotta say, the internet is never gonna be the first - and it'd be a pretty shit debate if it was - but the second seems to be perfectly attainable.

[Bullseye]

The thing is the circle goes round as much when a pro-israeli asks a pro-palestinian to justify the blowin gup of buses with families on board first but all they get in response in the question of justifying tanks killing civilians.

It is never one side or the other that refuses to debate, it is usually a joint effort of neither side willing to debate, or only willing to state "facts" then refuse to have anything else to do with debating apart from the odd few insults.

I personally dont post unless i have read what has come before it, unless it is to s specific point made by a specific person such as aladdin or scarlettleeds.

[sophia]

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[ShyBoy]

The thing is the circle goes round as much when a pro-israeli asks a pro-palestinian to justify the blowin gup of buses with families on board first but all they get in response in the question of justifying tanks killing civilians.

It is never one side or the other that refuses to debate, it is usually a joint effort of neither side willing to debate, or only willing to state "facts" then refuse to have anything else to do with debating apart from the odd few insults.

I personally dont post unless i have read what has come before it, unless it is to s specific point made by a specific person such as aladdin or scarlettleeds.

Oh yea, i didnt mean it was one sided, of course both are as bad as each other. What I meant was the debates never seemed to lead anywhere because neither side would conceed a point, or attempt to justify it. i.e. a pro-israel accepting that there is an institutionalised problem with the IDF or a pro-palestine accepting that the palestinian government isnt hardline enough on terrorists (bear in mind these are both examples, they may or may not be true, just, dont pick me up debate for them because they are just examples :p)

I get especially frustrated when I post something but nobody responds to it. But then again, people are going to reply to something if they dont agree with it (see me saying id read an article saying housewives did the equivelent of 12 hours work a week, and all teh responses that got) but if they do agree with it they're not going to bother. Had an interesting discussion about it with JimV actually :yes:

[Balddog]

Its not pointless...It kills time..

The kind of people who discuss politics online almost always have their opinions carved in stone and they will argue that sun is the moon rather than give any ground..

Although one good thing is that it sometimes educates people, regardless of whether they want to admit it or not..I used to post a lot on politics forums and as a result did a lot of reading..Still do....so thats a positive...

Does it achieve anythin? No.

[Flashman's Ghost]

If nothing else its good to have to defend your views - even if it all it does is convince you your right and the others are talking ill-informed bollocks.

[ButtonMoon]

As briggi said, I feel I learn a lot from debating on here with other people, and I think putting forward your opinion and defending it with reasons that others can understand is a valuable skill that is sharpened by practice, whether it's done face-to-face or on the internet.

I think this sums it up for me

[Randomgirl]

I think you learn from it.

However I can really see the benefit of a well moderated website with defined rules to prevent it deteriorating into the type of argument mentioned in the article.

[Bullseye]

But I think that is what most people do, sadly. We all think our beliefs are correct - if we didn't, they wouldn't be our beliefs - but we should also be open to the idea that we may be wrong, and that we can learn from others, especially on matters where there is no way to adjudicate who is right or wrong, as most moral issues are.

I spend my life in debates with others, and nothing frustrates me more than talking to someone who clearly thinks there is nothing they can learn from me, and nothing I can tell them that will make them think, and unfortunately it's all too common. Look at our adversarial style of politics; to concede a point is to admit defeat, to agree with the government is to be a weak opposition, etc.
Do you ever do it though? Think you are right and refuse to accept another argument or point of view no matter how good it is?

I do on occasion, i admit. At one stage i was very much against what Clandestine was arguing, then he convinced me he was right, but then he bashed on about it so much and almost did what klintock did on occasions by refusing to talk about the thread in favour of his own anti-Bush arguments that i reverted to my original thinking he was wrong. I suppose it is sometimes the way arguments are made as much as the the argument itself.

[sophia]

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[Teh_Gerbil]

In the same vein we can say isn't debating down the pub pointless? And infact, debating at all? Just because it is online and not in person, why is it?

Debating is a chance to put across your view, maybe have your view changed, and indeed, is an important part of who we are as people. It is how we form views and try out our views in the conceptual world.

Without debate, we'd still be cavemen thwocking each other with branches, I'd say.

Plus, debating is fun. (God, I am sad.)

[Disillusioned]

In the same vein we can say isn't debating down the pub pointless? And infact, debating at all? Just because it is online and not in person, why is it?

Debating is a chance to put across your view, maybe have your view changed, and indeed, is an important part of who we are as people. It is how we form views and try out our views in the conceptual world.

You're right. Thing is really, debating whether it is mouthing off down the pub or letting off steam on an internet forum is not actually going to have any tangible influence. Writing into newspapers and such may have more of an effect because there is more of a chance of a letter in a broadsheet newspaper being read by people in positions of power. But lobbying MPs or having some involvement in think tanks, pressure groups, etc has far more of a point than debate down the pub in that it might achieve something...Although, some blogs are very influential. ConservativeHome (http://conservativehome.blogs.com/) for instance is very influential within the Conservative party, it's independent of the party but is directly addressed by Conservative politicans, e.g. David Cameron today..

[Kentish]

huge issues aren't going to be resolved by finding some 'a priori' perfect answer - but rather that it is the journey or the debate itself that provides the benefits to those involved, by opening them to a wider viewpoint, or different perspective on their own.
This is why I enjoy posting on theSite. The politics board can be a bit claustrophobic but it's a good place to air views and read others. Just like pub chat really.

[Aladdin]

This is why I enjoy posting on theSite. The politics board can be a bit claustrophobic but it's a good place to air views and read others. Just like pub chat really. Minus the beer :mad:

[Kentish]

Minus the beer :mad:
:no:





:D

[Teh_Gerbil]

Minus the beer :mad:

Well bring some along you stingy twat. ;)

Ah, oneday, internet beer will be a reality. I hope.

[Guest]

I think it is quite pointless...
Note the exchange of opinions and views can be quite interesting...

Which make me think at this classic...

http://nihilisticmadman.com/images/arguing.jpg

:D :D :D :D :D

[Senor Miguel]

I suppose it is sometimes the way arguments are made as much as the the argument itself.

:yes: that's exactly what it is, nobody takes kindly to having the same shit forced down their throat repeatedly, even if there is some truth in it, that's why blag/klint/clan can get on people's tits, because after the first couple points it's all swings and roundabouts, we're all guilty of it i spose.......the only way i can really get people to see things on my level is to lend them a book or a documentary that blew my mind......that's why i don't really post on here with the intent of changing people's views, maybe just to broaden them a little.....oh and it kills the time.

[Balddog]

In the same vein we can say isn't debating down the pub pointless? And infact, debating at all? Just because it is online and not in person, why is it?

Debating is a chance to put across your view, maybe have your view changed, and indeed, is an important part of who we are as people. It is how we form views and try out our views in the conceptual world.

Without debate, we'd still be cavemen thwocking each other with branches, I'd say.

Plus, debating is fun. (God, I am sad.)

Nah its different in real life..People arent as stubborn...I discuss politics with my mates down the pub, and with random strangers sometimes..Nobody is ever so hardcore in their views as some of the people on politics forums..

Plus in real life you can actually see what the person is saying a lot more easily than you can via text.

If some of the people on this board and other politics boards discussed things in real life the same way they do here, theyd have their heads kicked in pretty sharpish.

[Kermit]

I don't think there's anything pointless about debating, you learn some new things (even if you think they're bollocks) and sometimes you soften a stance on something. It's not always about winning, but of course it's nice to see someone see the error of their ways and agree with you;)

It's no different to debating down the pub though. When I'm in the pub with some of the people on here I say the same things about certain topics, in the same style. Sometimes they agree, sometimes I think they're a dozy sod, but hey, that's life.

The only debate I am determined to win is the one about the thieving scum at the BBC.

[Balddog]

I spent maybe 5 years on online politics forums arguing various things...I was pretty right wing on some issues...Internet discussion rarely changed my opinion..I think it happened maybe once, regarding abortion..and it wasnt a full turn around..

[Blagsta]

of course its pointless - thats half the fun

[Teh_Gerbil]

If some of the people on this board and other politics boards discussed things in real life the same way they do here, theyd have their heads kicked in pretty sharpish.

True. You can be honest here with little hope of it ever catching up to you. :D